1 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 1:07 PM

Hi any opinions for best temp for yeast pitch and fermemtaion with coopers irish and ozzie stout

2 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 4:24 PM

18-20 degrees C.

3 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 6:29 PM

Is that for pitching as well,I was wondering if it made any differance, if you pitched at say 26 then cooled to 18-20 , would it made any differance, from pitching at 20. Bert

4 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 7:43 PM

Hi bertj.

Your question is a good one, & not one you'll get a unanimous agreement on. There are those that like to pitch their yeast @ the temp they plan to ferment the brew at, those that like to actually pitch the yeast at a slightly lower temp & allow the brew to rise to it's intended ferment temp, & finally those that pitch to a higher temp & lower the temp of their brew wort gradually to reach their intended temp for primary fermentation.

I personally pitch at a higher temp than I plan to ferment at. My view is that yeast (regardless of being lager or ale based), thrive at a certain temperature towards the top end of their primary fermentation range, & I pitch towards that higher end of the range & then gradually lower the temp of my brew wort into the yeasts ideal fermentation range, (usually within the 3 or so degree differing allowance). The mere fact that it is a given that you need to pitch more yeast at lower temperatures reinforces my view on this.

Pitching at lower than the expected primary fermentation temp can effectively “shock” & potentially render a portion of what is pitched useless. Pitching at lower temps often goes hand in hand with having to pitch larger volumes of yeast to guarantee that your brew will completely ferment out. Yeah like I'm gonna pay for twice as much yeast than I actually need to guarantee my brew will ferment out? Pfffft! Not likely!

Pitching at equal temps to what you plan to primary ferment at with an ale yeast brew, I don't have any real issue with, but when brewing with lager yeast at lower end primary lager brewing temps (9-12°C), I'd personally still prefer to pitch at the higher end of the yeasts range & lower the temp down to that ideal fermenting temp.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

Anthony.

5 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 7:57 PM

Beerlust:

Pitching at lower than the expected primary fermentation temp can effectively “shock” & potentially render a portion of what is pitched useless. Pitching at lower temps often goes hand in hand with having to pitch larger volumes of yeast to guarantee that your brew will completely ferment out. Yeah like I'm gonna pay for twice as much yeast than I actually need to guarantee my brew will ferment out? Pfffft! Not likely!

Lusty, what temps are you talking about here? Are you saying that if I wanted to ferment at 20 degrees but pitched at 16-17 degrees that I would shock the yeast?

Bert, pitching at 26C and bringing it down to 20C is fine if it is done relatively quickly.

Kelsey is right that the general temp range for fermenting ales is 18-20 degrees but, with a stout, I think you wouldn't even notice if it fermented a few degrees higher.

6 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 8:16 PM

Thanks beerlust very imformative . I see what you say about about starting at a higher temp how long does it take the yeast to give the beer bad flavor if left for a high temp too long , Hairy same question i think, what would you consider relatively quickly. quote

7 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 8:21 PM

In my opinion it is yeast dependant.
My massive, unfallible, scientifically soundtrial suggested (along with google) that a yeast such as SAF-04 does not like to be pitched high and then dropped. Stalled at 1020.
The other time i used the yeast I pitched low and rose and it was a champ.

8 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 8:48 PM

Hi Hairy.

Hairy:

Lusty, what temps are you talking about here? Are you saying that if I wanted to ferment at 20 degrees but pitched at 16-17 degrees that I would shock the yeast?

A bit harsh Hairy, but if you want an honest answer from me, & one erring on the side of caution, then my answer to this question is “Yes”. As I went on to say, it becomes more of an issue when lager brewing at lower lager fermenting temperatures, but I stand by everything I stated in my earlier post. It's my view based on practical experiences, so there is nothing fictional about what I have stated (IMHO).

Put that comment into context though. I repeatedly mentioned the yeasts primary fermentation range with my view. For discussion sake, I recently brewed an ale beer with US-05 pitched @ approx. 20°C+ & then reduced to 15°C (towards the bottom end of it's range), & it struggled that much that I raised the ferment temp to 16°C to have it behave & ferment in a better fashion. The beer from this brew turned out quite exceptional actually. The US-05 properties claim it can effectively ferment between a 12 - 25°C range. From what I observed, I certainly won't be attempting to brew with it under 16°C as long as I continue to use it.

As a side note, the “Glad Wrap” boys would have no idea of what is happening regarding C02 expelling rate & ferment ferocity, bar what they might be able to see through the clearer areas of their fermenter which would not necessarily be any different to most brews in what they see.

Hairy:

Bert, pitching at 26C and bringing it down to 20C is fine if it is done relatively quickly.

+1

I have no problem with this temperature pitching provided the yeast being used is safe to use in this range.

Hairy:

Kelsey is right that the general temp range for fermenting ales is 18-20 degrees but, with a stout, I think you wouldn't even notice if it fermented a few degrees higher.

Again +1.

Cheers,

Anthony.

9 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:10 PM

Not trying to be harsh, just trying to understand. Still trying to understand how pitching yeast cooler and slowly letting the temperature rise will shock the yeast.

Perhaps it is just the terminology you used.

I agree that everyone has a different opinion on pitching temps though.

10 Posted: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:50 PM

Beerlust:

There are those that like to pitch their yeast @ the temp they plan to ferment the brew at, those that like to actually pitch the yeast at a slightly lower temp & allow the brew to rise to it's intended ferment temp, & finally those that pitch to a higher temp & lower the temp of their brew wort gradually to reach their intended temp for primary fermentation.


Hairy:

I agree that everyone has a different opinion on pitching temps though.

I'm quite happy to leave my viewpoint on this door step.

Cheers,

Anthony.

11 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:23 AM

Just to claify If I pitched at 26 but wanted to brew at say 20 and the ampient temp in the brewing room was at say 18, Can I let the brew cool down naturaly overnight or should I try to cool the brew more rapidly. Bert

12 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8:42 AM

Hi Bert, i only ever pitch at the ambient temp of the wort. i never use hot water to dissolve the ingredients as that happens ok with straight tap water. the temp is normally low to mid 20's depending on the time of the year. then i put the FV in the brewfridge and ferment at 18 deg.
this is the easiest method and my stout always turns out very nice. maybe a more delicate flavoured beer could have a more controlled pitching temp, but i doubt that it makes any difference in heavy and darker beers.

13 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 10:31 AM

Hi bertj.

bertj:

Just to claify If I pitched at 26 but wanted to brew at say 20 and the ampient temp in the brewing room was at say 18, Can I let the brew cool down naturaly overnight or should I try to cool the brew more rapidly.


Hairy:

Bert, pitching at 26C and bringing it down to 20C is fine if it is done relatively quickly.

+1

As you are brewing without a brew fridge, you would need to find a way to cool it. A number of the guys place their fermenter in a tub & surround the FV with cold tap water & use some ice bricks to control the temperature. Others have soaked a towel & draped it over the FV & used a fan to control temp. I use a brew fridge for the bulk of my fermenting, but on occassion, I use dry ice packs strapped to the outside of the fermenter with a towel wrapped around them to achieve the same goal.

Yeast actually generates heat when it is fermenting, so even though the ambient room temp is 18°C, it will have little to no effect on dropping the temp of the brew wort once the yeast get up & going. Rises in temperature of 1 - 2°C are quite common depending on certain outside influences.

Nick's suggestion is the probably the best, being to minimize the amount of hot water you use when mixing your brew together before pitching your yeast. You can make attaining a lower starting temperature a little easier by placing some large water containers (10 litres or so) in your fridge the night before brew day.

I hope that helps, & good luck with the brew.

Cheers,

Anthony.

14 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:12 PM

I can't say I agree entirely with that cold pitching theory. The whole idea of it is to pitch the yeast into wort that is about 1-2 degrees cooler than the planned fermenting temp, not 4 or 5 or 10 degrees cooler.

Let's say you want to ferment an ale at 20C and pitch at 18C. You make up a yeast starter, let it ferment out and refrigerate it for 2 or 3 days before pitching to let it settle out more. Stick the batch of wort in the brew fridge and bring it down to 17 (allowing for warm up during transfer to FV). Take the starter out and let it come up to around 17-18C before transferring wort and pitching. Now you're still cold pitching but the temperatures are practically the same, not causing any yeast shock or stress. Alternatively rehydrate the yeast and cool it to the same temp and pitch that, if you don't have the means to make a starter.

Take that same batch of wort at that temp and pitch yeast that is 10C higher and you probably will shock it. You can't just put a blanket “cold pitching shocks yeast” on it because there are controllable variables to prevent this. Agreed you do need a larger volume of yeast when doing this, hence building a starter.

NB. obviously you'd need a set up with a brew fridge and equipment for yeast starters to do it that way, but it certainly is a way of cold pitching and not shocking yeast, provided you have the equipment to do it.

Cheers

15 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:19 PM

Thanks for all replys, Yes I have been using 2 liters of boiled water to mix up my fermantables. which leaves total brew at about 26 I will try without the boiled water next time to keep the temp down a bit. And see the results Bert

16 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 6:23 PM

bertj:

Yes I have been using 2 liters of boiled water to mix up my fermantables. which leaves total brew at about 26 I will try without the boiled water next time to keep the temp down a bit.


I'm so far from being a resident expert it's not funny, but I see you used the term “boiled water” and not “boiling water”. So I assume the water temp for the fermentables isn't too close to 100C.

Just in case, the usual directions specifically say to use hot water and not boiling water. So while I'm happy to use the water out of the hot tap (at my place it's 55 to 60 C), I have never mixed or dissolved fermentables above that. If I'm mistaken, and I like the fact that people here are prepared to give open honest advice without too much sugar coating, there will be a correction coming very soon.

Cheers.

17 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 6:29 PM

Hi Kelsey.

I agree with everything you stated in your previous post, bar this passage…

Otto Von Blotto:

Take that same batch of wort at that temp and pitch yeast that is 10C higher and you probably will shock it. You can't just put a blanket “cold pitching shocks yeast” on it because there are controllable variables to prevent this. Agreed you do need a larger volume of yeast when doing this, hence building a starter.

I disagree with this theory, but admit a 10°C swing is asking a lot from any yeast from the point of pitching to the eventual wanted ferment temperature. The yeasts temperature range is the overwhelming & governing factor of what you can safely pitch into, given the eventual temperature you wish to ferment at. The most that even versatile yeasts offer as a range is about a 7°C swing for optimal fermentation conditions. Operate within that temperature swing regardless of yeast type, & you'll have less of a problem relating to primary fermenting your beer successfully.

As Hairy has already eluded to, the wider the gap between the temperature you pitch into, & the difference you wish to ferment at, becomes more arduous to quickly reach, the wider that gap starts at.

Cheers,

Anthony.

18 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 7:42 PM

antiphile:

bertj:

Yes I have been using 2 liters of boiled water to mix up my fermantables. which leaves total brew at about 26 I will try without the boiled water next time to keep the temp down a bit.


I'm so far from being a resident expert it's not funny, but I see you used the term “boiled water” and not “boiling water”. So I assume the water temp for the fermentables isn't too close to 100C.

Just in case, the usual directions specifically say to use hot water and not boiling water. So while I'm happy to use the water out of the hot tap (at my place it's 55 to 60 C), I have never mixed or dissolved fermentables above that. If I'm mistaken, and I like the fact that people here are prepared to give open honest advice without too much sugar coating, there will be a correction coming very soon.

Cheers.

Ant I have no filter on my hot water tap so I have been heating water on the stove for the recommended 2 litre hot water, but I do not boil up fermentables in it directly, I have put some cold filtered rain water in fermenter and then added hot water then stirred then added tin of wort, malt etc then stirred , then top up to required amount with filtered cold water. I presume that is a satisfactory way of doing things. But from reading here I think I will just use a bit less hot water to get temp closer to requird, I just thought about as am writing this that my finished temp is maybye a bit high due to the extra hot water I am using when washing the remaining wort from the can. Bert

19 Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 8 PM

I used to boil the kettle, pour it into the FV and then immediately add the fermentables. I had no major problem using boiling hot water.

The trick is to put water in the fridge the night before. I used to add 5-10 litres of water to a sanitised container(s) and chill it. Use this as the top up water to bring the temp down.

20 Posted: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:28 AM

That's a good idea hairy, It will never hurt to have some cold water on standby, Also I think as the seasons change ie winter comes this will not be an issue, as im on water tanks, and live in Tassie.